African presidents do not need to win the Mo Ibrahim prize, but quality leadership is crucial. The EastAfrican speaks to Mo Ibrahim about the latest Ibrahim Index of African Governance (IIAG) report released on October 3.

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The report shows that two critical areas — security and rule of law — are in the negative. Let us start with Sudan where you are from: Is the problem of South Sudan of concern to you?

It is a serious concern and it is extremely sad to see a political  leadership that  is fighting, and dividing  the country along ethnic lines. Tens of thousands have been killed and tens of thousands of women have been raped. This is totally unacceptable. All those leaders should end up in in the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

What levels of engagement has the foundation had with the AU to bring peace to South Sudan?

We had former South African president Thabo Mbeki working hard on this issue and we also had from our foundation Festus Mogae, ex-president of Botswana, working specifically on the issue of South Sudan. This is not about mediation because there is no substance for the mediation. People mediate if there are real issues to be discussed. I think these are all issues about power, naked power to milk the meagre resources of the country for personal interests.

What impact have these reports had on governance in Africa?

I think the first thing is that the word governance started to fall in Africa. Ten years ago, nobody was talking about the big elephant in the room. We started to use that word and we try to simplify it.  It is not a complex academic definition and the best way to start is by dissecting it into reasonable things that relate to everybody’s daily lives. What is governance? It is about delivery of goods. 

So what is happening in education? What is happening in health? What is happening in infrastructure? What is happening in jobs? What is happening in our security? can we walk on the streets safely? What is happening about corruption? These are simple things that can be measured. We try to measure these based on simple to understand report, not because we want to win elections, became want the elderly people, men and women, in the street to feel they are citizens and that the government is accountable, and that is what the index is trying to do. It is  not intended to shame or name any government but to help all of us understand what works and what doesn’t work and why some countries are succeeding while  other countries  are failing.

On the gender issue where the index reports some progress, is this just a question of numbers?

No, this is about what is actually happening on the ground. This is about the women’s political, physical, economic and social rights. Look, to have a woman prime minister or three women in the Cabinet does not mean that women’s position in the country has improved. But we are very pleased with the progress that has been made.

Ten years ago, Nigeria, South Africa and Egypt showed signs of being emerging markets that would soon compete with established markets in the world,  which have certainly retrogressed in terms of security and rule of law. All growth indices are collapsing and these countries are sliding backward slide. What do you think is responsible for that?

Right, I think the evidence is clear in front of us about these countries. To rely too much on exporting a commodity is a dangerous path and for years we have been talking about the need to diversify the economy. 

There are 14 African countries that are oil exporters and they rely mainly on oil for their budgets and what happened? I mean for 10 years, we had a big bonanza in the price of oil. It went up from $35, $38 to $130, $140 even $150 and what happened? We tracked its impact over these 10 years on the infrastructure of the industries of the rural sectors of these countries, and, my brother nothing happened. What happened with this windfall of money? That is the question and it is a legitimate question.

This is the importance of data because it puts right in front of us, these are  important and simple questions, which need an answer. A lot of this is also on corruption in Nigeria and we are aware that President Buhari is going around asking for his money back, and we have difficulties in seeing how this money can get back to him.

In South Africa, the commodity prices hit the mines, then we had violence in some mines and then we have the government that keeps on changing policies  in the mining sector, then we started to see this investment undermining the sector, then we started to see some political instability creeping into the system in South Africa and that was a problem.

Now, I was looking at the table, which explains the  inequality in  the country and it says South Africa is the most unequal country in the world and its raises a legitimate question. 

Twenty years of  liberation and  inequality in the country is increasing; it is unfair. So why did you come to govern? These are the kind of questions we need to really dig into. Egypt has had several changes of government and a lot of instability in the country these affecting the economy of the country and this is a country that depends on tourism for foreign currency and employment.

Governance is a factor of leadership; what are your views on the current crop of leadership in Africa and particularly in view of the fact that it has been a while since we got a winner of the Mo Ibrahim Leadership Award?

Well, last year we got pledges to have one from Namibia. So, yes, not every year we got to have a winner but this is the nation of excellence, unfortunately. And you know I would be happy if people did not even achieve the same standard as President Barack Obama or Festus Mogae. They don’t even need to win the prize but let us just have reasonable leaders. I think we have a deficit in leadership in Africa, which is sad.